[Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??

[William P. Taggart]

BRUCE,
 
G O T C H Y A ! !
 
        :-)
 
YoPal,  Bill

________________________________

From: Bruce McNichols [mailto:muskrat at bestweb.net] 
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 7:56 PM
To: tradjazz at list.okom.com
Subject: [Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??


I shoulda known that this thing was gonna open up so many cans of worms,
that I'd become ensnared, and never get back to work.  Hey!  Maybe I
like that idea.
 
Bill Taggart, OKOM's founder (and funder) seems to have ascribed some
opinions, to me.  Many are opinions that I don't have and don't recall
ever stating.  Seeing as how Bill runs the place, I'd better be careful
what I say here.  Oh heck.  I'll say it anyway.
 
I really don't wish to state that there are significant differences
between Trad Jazz, Dixieland, and Classic Jazz.
 
I'm sure that I never said that Bill was unsophisticated for not knowing
the differences.  One of the reasons I'm sure I never said that (or
thought it) is because I firmly believe that:  NOBODY CAN DEFINE JAZZ.
Many think they can, and many have tried, but I don't buy it.

	A dear friend of mine, the late great Joe H. Klee, had a pat
definition of jazz and I often chided him for presuming to be the one
person who could define it.  Joe, by the way, was a long-time reviewer
and columnist for the revered Mississippi Rag, that wonderful
publication dedicated to our beloved music.  {check them out at
www.mississippirag.com }

Joe's definition started with:  It must be improvised music.  I can
understand that it might be hard to imagine musicians reading jazz, but
when I hear some of the recordings of the Goodman band, or Artie Shaw,
or Jimmie Lunceford, or the Coon Sanders Orchestra, and on and on - I
can't help but think that it's jazz.  As with the King Oliver Band, I
suspect that the charts had spaces for improvising.  Beyond that, I
submit that the ensemble reading sections, sure sound like Jazz to me.
 
I've heard that Louis Armstrong, when asked "What is Jazz?" replied "If
you gotta ask, you'll never know."  I've also heard that You can learn
how to play jazz, but you can't teach it.   I don't mean to say that
just because I've heard (or read) such things, that that makes it so.  I
do say, that we should consider all such things.
 
~~~
As I understand it, the term "Traditional Jazz," was coined by Turk
Murphy, in the late 1940's.  I like that term.  I think that the term
"Dixieland Jazz" has taken a bum rap, in that it may conjure up the
image of a bunch of guys in striped vests, playing corny versions of
so-called Dixieland Jazz.  
 
I think that our music was born in New Orleans, from a combination of
Spiritual music, along with some rhythms from the Caribbean, mixed with
Ragtime sounds and European music.  I think that the folks in England,
began performing their version of our music, in the late 40's and
1950's.  It's my impression that they are what is called British Trad
bands.
 
Bill indicates that I said that Trad Jazz came out of the English music
halls.  I don't believe that, and I doubt if I ever said it, although
it's reasonable to assume that Music Hall music had some influence on
it.  I think it came from the British musicians who were highly
influenced by the New Orleans sounds.  I don't recall citing Acker Bilk
as a prime example of British Trad Jazz, although I must say, thanks to
Radio OKOM's vast record collection, I've come to have a new respect for
Acker Bilk and his band.  His big hit (Stranger on the Shore) never
knocked me out.

	The more I read Bill's comments, the more I think that he is a
very clever fellow.  I do believe that I've been had.  I think he has
engineered this thing, simply to spur a controversy.  Wellsir.  You've
succeeded Bill, because here I am, and I can't stop myself.  Are ya
happy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>From my observations, the old-time New Orleans bands seem to have the

bass player (string bass or tuba), playing 4-beat (4 beats to the bar).
The banjo player (if there was one) also played 4 beats to the bar.
Often the piano would comp chords, also 4 to the bar.
 
As the story goes, when Storyville (in New Orleans) was shut down, many
musicians traveled up the Mississippi River and brought their music to
St. Louis and Chicago etc..  I think that King Oliver, Louis and Jelly
Roll Morton spent time in Chicago, playing and recording.
 
As the years went on, the music transmogrified into more of a swinging
4-beat feel. Some had guitar, but not usually banjo.  Many of the sacred
names in our music, came on the scene:  Bix Beiderbecke, Eddie Condon,
Wild Bill Davison, and on and on.  They developed what I think of as
Chicago Style jazz.
 
Later, many of these musicians came to New York, and the New York style
was born.  I think of Chicago Style and New York Style as being similar.
 
~~~
In the 1940's, guys such as Lu Watters and his crew (Turk Murphy, Bob
Scobey, Bob Helm, Bob Short, and may others) discovered the music of
many years earlier, and began playing it.
 
Their recordings were probably the spark that began the so-called
Dixieland Revival, that lasted until the early 1960's.  Bands around the
world emulated the sound of Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band (of San
Francisco).  Along with that, the Chicago crew (Condon et al) were going
strong in New York.  During the 40's and early 50's, the famed 52nd
Street in NYC, came alive with music.  
 
The 52nd Street bands included old-time Dixieland  bands, along with the
likes of Fats Waller and many newer style players such as Charlie
Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Nat "King" Cole and many more.
 
One of my favorites was the Wilbur DeParis Band.  They played at the
original Jimmy Ryan's club on 52nd Street.  OKOM's founder, Bill
Taggart, tells me that he sat in with that band, when he was the tuba
man with the Southampton Dixie Racing & Clambake Society Jazz Band (long
may their banner wave).

	In the 1960's, members of my band, and I, visited the 54th
Street Jimmy Ryan's many times.  We had the pleasure of sitting in with
the likes of Max Kaminsky (cornet), Tony Parenti (clarinet), Cliff
Jackson (piano) and Zutty Singleton (drums).  These guys were some of
the originators of our music.
	 
	Later there was another Jimmy Ryan's (on 54th Street) where Roy
Eldridge led the band for many years.

Wilbur called his group a "New, New Orleans Band."  They had what I
think of as, a slicker, smoother, version of the basic New Orleans
music.
 
I had the pleasure of seeing them often.  I especially enjoyed Omer
Simeon on clarinet.  Earlier, Simeon did many recordings with Jelly Roll
Morton.
 
~~~
I do not think that the word "jazz" means modern jazz, but I do think
that the average person, might think so.  I've often heard people refer
to "jazz" and "Dixieland" as two different things.  They just don't
understand that the original "Jazz" is quite different from the
so-called Modern Jazz.
 
I happen to like most kinds of jazz, especially the older styles.  I
draw he line at the way-out modern stuff.  When a band forsakes the
rhythm section, they lose me.  That's not to say that that isn't a valid
interpretation of music.  What I do say is "They ain't talkin' to me."
 
~~~~~
Please know that this is just one guy's rambling thoughts.  I certainly
don't claim to be an expert on any of this.  What I am, is an avid fan
who has been exposed to many styles of music.  I've read a lot about
this stuff, but then, what I've read, is just some other guys' opinions
and thoughts.

	There ain't no right and the ain't no wrong.

~~~
Now, as with Bill Taggart, I'll just sit back and wait for the sparks to
start flying.
 
McN  
Bruce - I know a little bit about a lot of things - McNichols
 
 
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message posted previously by Bill Taggart: 
 
'' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"?? 

I'd like your help in resolving a difference of opinion. My good 
friend, BRUCE MCNICHOLS, of Radio OKOM fame, has taken a position that 
there are great and significant differences among the phrases "Trad 
Jazz", " Dixieland", and "Classic Jazz". He says I'm unsophisticated 
for not knowing the differences. According to Bruce, Trad Jazz refers 
only to a very narrow style of Jazz originating from English show bands 
and pretty much played only in England. He cites Acker Bilk as a prime 
example. 

"Dixieland", on the other hand, refers only to the loose form of music 
that originated in New Orleans. 

"Classic Jazz" refers to Chicago and West Coast Jazz. 

To top it all off, he says that the word," Jazz", without a preceding 
adjective, means Modern Jazz, starting with Charlie Mingus. 

I, for one, find it difficult to define Our Kind Of Music in such 
explicit and definitive ways. I believe there is so much overlap among 
styles that these terms are much more interchangeable. Americans can 
play Trad Jazz with the best of 'em. 
Certainly, the word "Jazz", whether standing alone or not, does not 
refer only to modern Jazz. 

What do you think? 


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