[Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??

[Bruce McNichols]

  How come I had already figured out that this discussion group was gonna be the most controversial thing in my otherwise tranquil life?

~~~
JOE KLEE
I am fully aware that Mr. Klee himself, was a very controversial character.  At a memorial for him, at St. Peter's Church in New York, I attended, performed and spoke.  As I listened to the other speakers, I came to realize what I should have instinctively known.  ALL OF US had pretty much the same take on Joe Klee.  It was:  he was impossible but we loved him anyway.

Mr. Barnes opines that Joe's knowledge of jazz was mediocre.  I'm on thin ice here because I am not a student of jazz.  I've read a lot about it (much of it on LP liner notes) and I've heard a lot of musicians and bands.  I have clear opinions on what I like and what I don't like, but I make no claim that that means it's good or bad.

My long-time acquaintanceship with Joe Klee, afforded me many occasions to lock horns with him.  Although our basic likes and dislikes were fairly close, we fought endlessly about the details.  I don't usually raise my voice, but some of his opinions had me screaming at him, in frustration.

That he said that Ellington's band didn't swing sounds fairly typical of his outspoken opinions.  Klee had a definition of jazz.  That alone is enough to cancel out most of his other opinions.  Maybe some of Bix's solos were written out.  Could be, but to suggest that Bix was not an improvising genius, seems to be an out-there point of view.  That said, we're talking about one man's personal opinions.  Who are we to say what swings and what doesn't.  
  OK, I'd better back up a bit here.  I think that most of us would say that the Ellington band could swing like the dickens (whatever that is).
That Joe's opinions differed from mine, or yours, shouldn't mean that his knowledge of the subject matter was mediocre.  For a guy who has spent a lifetime listening to, and playing, old-time jazz, my knowledge of the subject is very sparse.  I've absorbed a lot, but I haven't formally studied it. Joe Klee did.  He knew hundreds of arcane facts about bands, recordings, sidemen, etc.  That said, we had many differing opinions.  AGAIN, THAT DOESN'T MAKE EITHER ONE OF US RIGHT, OR WRONG.

~~~
It's been said that Joe Klee rarely attended anything but freebies.  That said, he covered many a Lincoln Center event as well as most Highlights in Jazz concerts.  That's not to say that he didn't get comps for those events.  Heck, I try for freebies myself, whenever I can.  

I have a lot of experience seeing bands in New York City clubs.  Even at the so-called lower-priced venues, I find it difficult to get out of there without spending almost $100 for my wife and I.  Joe was a retired person living on a fixed income.  I feel no animosity towards him for not spending a bundle in order to write about our music.  As you may know, his writing garnered very little income.

I, for one, found his writing to be of a high quality.  I suppose that we all like a writer better, if he shares our own opinions.  When Joe Klee wrote about something, we got HIS opinion.  I am not a fan of critics, yet I'll have to admit, their job is to criticize.

Joe often put down musicians who I admired highly.  I'd always call him on it, when he did so.  I'd sometimes end up yelling at him when he criticized a musician that we used in my band.  I'd implore him to consider the fact that some very fine musicians in my band (musicians who got rave reviews from him) seem to think that so and so is a fine player and that maybe he should take another listen.  Forget it.  His mind was made up.
  See, I admit to what I think of as some of Mr. Klee's failings.
Mr. Barnes - who, by the way, has been playing traditional jazz with various bands, for as long as I can remember (and for now, I can remember a long way back) has made some rather stirring comments (seemingly spurred by my use of the term "Late Great" about Joe Klee).

Bill Taggart, OKOM's founder, really started things going with his posting of a few days back, when he ascribed many controversial comments, to me (when in fact I hadn't said such things).  I see that Mr. Barnes has jumped on the bandwagon, but unlike Bill T. (who was putting me on), Bill Barnes seems to be stating some real thoughts of his.  I LIKE IT.  Bill (B.) is right.  That's what this is all about.

~~~
I've yet to check out Ed Cuneo's blog but it reminds me of a review of the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, that was published in the Potomic River Jazz Club's newsletter, many years ago.  I still have a hard-copy of that review (somewhere).  The reviewer in question really wrote what he thought, about that revered band.  His point was something like "The Emperor has no Clothes."  The controversy that that article stirred up, went on for months.  

Enough awreddy yet.

McN


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From: Bill Barnes [mailto:cleanhead77 at earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:35 AM
To: tradjazz at list.okom.com
Subject: Re: [Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??


 The late great??? Joe Klee?? Joe was a nice enough fella, but I think his knowledge of jazz was mediocre at best. Famous quotes of his: "The Ellington band didn't swing" or how about " Bix's solos were written out" . He  put his foot in his mouth many times over the years. As a correspondent for the Mississippi Rag he covered mostly free venues in New York, hardly ever spending anything to write about things like concerts in Lincoln Center or any clubs that charged a cover or a premium for drinks, etc. In a other words, if it cost, you probably wouldn't read about it in Joe's column.Moreover, he didn't seem to be able to distinguish between really good players and those who dazzled with a lot of bullshit.
         Nice guy? faithful jazz fan?Fun character about town? YES! Great writer/critic? NO.
          Some could consider this a pot calling a kettle black, although I don't recall my ever being called "great". Well, we are supposed to stir up stuff here, so why not?
          If you think this is controversial, Google Ed Cuneo, banjo player in Florida, and read his blog  containing a review of the Black Eagles Jazz Band he wrote several years ago. That'll really stir up a hornets' nest.
                                                      Bill Barnes
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bruce McNichols 
  To: tradjazz at list.okom.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:56 PM
  Subject: [Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??


  I shoulda known that this thing was gonna open up so many cans of worms, that I'd become ensnared, and never get back to work.  Hey!  Maybe I like that idea.

  Bill Taggart, OKOM's founder (and funder) seems to have ascribed some opinions, to me.  Many are opinions that I don't have and don't recall ever stating.  Seeing as how Bill runs the place, I'd better be careful what I say here.  Oh heck.  I'll say it anyway.

  I really don't wish to state that there are significant differences between Trad Jazz, Dixieland, and Classic Jazz.

  I'm sure that I never said that Bill was unsophisticated for not knowing the differences.  One of the reasons I'm sure I never said that (or thought it) is because I firmly believe that:  NOBODY CAN DEFINE JAZZ.  Many think they can, and many have tried, but I don't buy it.
    A dear friend of mine, the late great Joe H. Klee, had a pat definition of jazz and I often chided him for presuming to be the one person who could define it.  Joe, by the way, was a long-time reviewer and columnist for the revered Mississippi Rag, that wonderful publication dedicated to our beloved music.  {check them out at www.mississippirag.com }
  Joe's definition started with:  It must be improvised music.  I can understand that it might be hard to imagine musicians reading jazz, but when I hear some of the recordings of the Goodman band, or Artie Shaw, or Jimmie Lunceford, or the Coon Sanders Orchestra, and on and on - I can't help but think that it's jazz.  As with the King Oliver Band, I suspect that the charts had spaces for improvising.  Beyond that, I submit that the ensemble reading sections, sure sound like Jazz to me.

  I've heard that Louis Armstrong, when asked "What is Jazz?" replied "If you gotta ask, you'll never know."  I've also heard that You can learn how to play jazz, but you can't teach it.   I don't mean to say that just because I've heard (or read) such things, that that makes it so.  I do say, that we should consider all such things.

  ~~~
  As I understand it, the term "Traditional Jazz," was coined by Turk Murphy, in the late 1940's.  I like that term.  I think that the term "Dixieland Jazz" has taken a bum rap, in that it may conjure up the image of a bunch of guys in striped vests, playing corny versions of so-called Dixieland Jazz.  

  I think that our music was born in New Orleans, from a combination of Spiritual music, along with some rhythms from the Caribbean, mixed with Ragtime sounds and European music.  I think that the folks in England, began performing their version of our music, in the late 40's and 1950's.  It's my impression that they are what is called British Trad bands.

  Bill indicates that I said that Trad Jazz came out of the English music halls.  I don't believe that, and I doubt if I ever said it, although it's reasonable to assume that Music Hall music had some influence on it.  I think it came from the British musicians who were highly influenced by the New Orleans sounds.  I don't recall citing Acker Bilk as a prime example of British Trad Jazz, although I must say, thanks to Radio OKOM's vast record collection, I've come to have a new respect for Acker Bilk and his band.  His big hit (Stranger on the Shore) never knocked me out.
    The more I read Bill's comments, the more I think that he is a very clever fellow.  I do believe that I've been had.  I think he has engineered this thing, simply to spur a controversy.  Wellsir.  You've succeeded Bill, because here I am, and I can't stop myself.  Are ya happy?
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  From my observations, the old-time New Orleans bands seem to have the bass player (string bass or tuba), playing 4-beat (4 beats to the bar).  The banjo player (if there was one) also played 4 beats to the bar.  Often the piano would comp chords, also 4 to the bar.

  As the story goes, when Storyville (in New Orleans) was shut down, many musicians traveled up the Mississippi River and brought their music to St. Louis and Chicago etc..  I think that King Oliver, Louis and Jelly Roll Morton spent time in Chicago, playing and recording.

  As the years went on, the music transmogrified into more of a swinging 4-beat feel. Some had guitar, but not usually banjo.  Many of the sacred names in our music, came on the scene:  Bix Beiderbecke, Eddie Condon, Wild Bill Davison, and on and on.  They developed what I think of as Chicago Style jazz.

  Later, many of these musicians came to New York, and the New York style was born.  I think of Chicago Style and New York Style as being similar.

  ~~~
  In the 1940's, guys such as Lu Watters and his crew (Turk Murphy, Bob Scobey, Bob Helm, Bob Short, and may others) discovered the music of many years earlier, and began playing it.

  Their recordings were probably the spark that began the so-called Dixieland Revival, that lasted until the early 1960's.  Bands around the world emulated the sound of Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band (of San Francisco).  Along with that, the Chicago crew (Condon et al) were going strong in New York.  During the 40's and early 50's, the famed 52nd Street in NYC, came alive with music.  

  The 52nd Street bands included old-time Dixieland  bands, along with the likes of Fats Waller and many newer style players such as Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Nat "King" Cole and many more.

  One of my favorites was the Wilbur DeParis Band.  They played at the original Jimmy Ryan's club on 52nd Street.  OKOM's founder, Bill Taggart, tells me that he sat in with that band, when he was the tuba man with the Southampton Dixie Racing & Clambake Society Jazz Band (long may their banner wave).
    In the 1960's, members of my band, and I, visited the 54th Street Jimmy Ryan's many times.  We had the pleasure of sitting in with the likes of Max Kaminsky (cornet), Tony Parenti (clarinet), Cliff Jackson (piano) and Zutty Singleton (drums).  These guys were some of the originators of our music.

    Later there was another Jimmy Ryan's (on 54th Street) where Roy Eldridge led the band for many years.
  Wilbur called his group a "New, New Orleans Band."  They had what I think of as, a slicker, smoother, version of the basic New Orleans music.

  I had the pleasure of seeing them often.  I especially enjoyed Omer Simeon on clarinet.  Earlier, Simeon did many recordings with Jelly Roll Morton.

  ~~~
  I do not think that the word "jazz" means modern jazz, but I do think that the average person, might think so.  I've often heard people refer to "jazz" and "Dixieland" as two different things.  They just don't understand that the original "Jazz" is quite different from the so-called Modern Jazz.

  I happen to like most kinds of jazz, especially the older styles.  I draw he line at the way-out modern stuff.  When a band forsakes the rhythm section, they lose me.  That's not to say that that isn't a valid interpretation of music.  What I do say is "They ain't talkin' to me."

  ~~~~~
  Please know that this is just one guy's rambling thoughts.  I certainly don't claim to be an expert on any of this.  What I am, is an avid fan who has been exposed to many styles of music.  I've read a lot about this stuff, but then, what I've read, is just some other guys' opinions and thoughts.
    There ain't no right and the ain't no wrong.
  ~~~
  Now, as with Bill Taggart, I'll just sit back and wait for the sparks to start flying.

  McN  
  Bruce - I know a little bit about a lot of things - McNichols


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  message posted previously by Bill Taggart: 

  '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"?? 

  I'd like your help in resolving a difference of opinion. My good 
  friend, BRUCE MCNICHOLS, of Radio OKOM fame, has taken a position that 
  there are great and significant differences among the phrases "Trad 
  Jazz", " Dixieland", and "Classic Jazz". He says I'm unsophisticated 
  for not knowing the differences. According to Bruce, Trad Jazz refers 
  only to a very narrow style of Jazz originating from English show bands 
  and pretty much played only in England. He cites Acker Bilk as a prime 
  example. 

  "Dixieland", on the other hand, refers only to the loose form of music 
  that originated in New Orleans. 

  "Classic Jazz" refers to Chicago and West Coast Jazz. 

  To top it all off, he says that the word," Jazz", without a preceding 
  adjective, means Modern Jazz, starting with Charlie Mingus. 

  I, for one, find it difficult to define Our Kind Of Music in such 
  explicit and definitive ways. I believe there is so much overlap among 
  styles that these terms are much more interchangeable. Americans can 
  play Trad Jazz with the best of 'em. 
  Certainly, the word "Jazz", whether standing alone or not, does not 
  refer only to modern Jazz. 

  What do you think? 




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